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March 15, 2022

Top Tips for Negotiation & Persuasion from an FBI Hostage Negotiator | Derek Gaunt

Top Tips for Negotiation & Persuasion from an FBI Hostage Negotiator | Derek Gaunt

Derek Gaunt is the former Commander for the DC Hostage Negotiation Unit (29 Years) and the Head Trainer for Chris Voss' "Black Swan Group". 

Derek trains SWAT teams, the FBI, and Fortune 500 company Executives on the powers of negotiation and communication. He is also the author of the book "Ego, Authority, and Failure." His specialities were hostage negotiation, suicide interventions, and high pressure situations that required a positive end result. 

Today - he teaches us how to apply these same tactics and principles in everyday life and business. This will give all of us a massive edge over those not trained in this regard.

Learn about the following in this episode:

  • The power of silence
  • Tactical Empathy
  • Mirroring
  • How to Clear the Noise


https://www.blackswanltd.com/our-team/derek-gaunt

Ego, Authority, Failure: Using Emotional Intelligence Like a Hostage Negotiator to Succeed as a Leader


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Transcript
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If you go into a difficult conversation, number one with curiosity into the conversation assuming that you have something to learn from the other side, that in and of itself will prevent you from getting triggered during that conversation. Welcome to the action Academy podcast staring back while I celebrate freedom, the show where we help you achieve financial independence with a mindset methods and actionable steps from guests who've already earned their freedom blank the freedom fly. Choose to do what you want, what do you want with who you want with who you want, when you want when you want with another episode today. Now, here's your host, Brian Luebben. what's up what's up? Hello for the first time or welcome back to another episode of the action Academy podcast. This is your host, as always, Brian Luebben bring you the mindsets, the methods and the actionable steps to earn freedom in your life in business today. If you're new to the show, and you're listening to a couple of episodes, I'll let you know who you'll be listening to and that will be seven figure eight figure nine figure entrepreneurs that are teaching you the methods that they have used to earn freedom in their life of business already. And today's guest certainly steps up to the plate of this level of caliber. My guest today is none other than Derek Gaunt. So if you've heard of Chris Voss through his book never split the difference. Chris Voss was an FBI hostage negotiator, and now runs a civilian company named Black Swan group where he takes all the principles and concepts that he learned from the FBI in his three decades of hostage negotiation and special forces training and teaches you how to apply those tactics into your life and business and your team. In today's age, having these skill sets is the make or break differentiator between running a successful team running a terrible team, or having a successful business or a failing business. And where does Derek gaunt come in all of this Derek is Chris's head trainers. So whenever Chris is sending somebody out to a fortune 500 fortune 100 company to train them on these tactics it's going to be Derek so let me read you Derek specific bio as well. Derek Gong is a lecturer, author of ego authority, failure, and trainer with 29 years of law enforcement experience 20 of which, as a team member, leader, and then commander of hostage negotiation teams in the Washington DC metropolitan area. Derek is a head trainer and lecturer for both SWAT teams and the FBI hostage negotiation unit, and has decades and decades of experience. And I believe one decade with Chris Voss and the Black Swan group. So today he is going to go over a lot of useful information, such as tactical empathy, the power of silence, and how you can be able to truly listen to someone for understanding and come to an agreement where both of you feel seen heard and acknowledged in the conversation. If you finish this episode, you will not only be a better business owner, a better manager, but I would venture to say that you could even go home and if you have a conversation with your wife or husband or significant other, you can be able to have a little bit of help there too. So as always, if you're enjoying this content, please pause this episode take 510 seconds leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts and Spotify is how the show grows. And it's how we're able to reach more people with this information and this content. And lastly, as we're going into this episode, my buddy Derek was booked with multiple different interviews, and he got me confused with another guy. So in this episode, I go along with the fact that my name is Ben. So for this episode, this is your host, Ben Lubin. Okay, so I'm okay with it. I didn't correct him. He was on a roll. And he was killing it. So just heads up there. He says Ben a lot. So all good. And with that, I will give you Mr. Derek gone. Mr. Derek gaunt, how are you my friend? Doing well, Brian, thank you for having me. Very excited to have you on this is going to be fantastic. So I'll have a section beforehand where we'll have some details about your career. But I'd really like you to be able to introduce in your own words yourself to this audience because you have got quite the background. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I started my journey as a negotiator in law enforcement. That career for me began in 88. I became a hostage negotiator in 97. got promoted to sergeant became a team leader in 2001 and then promoted to lieutenant and I took over command of the team in 2004. And that's the position I held up until the time I actually left law enforcement. In that time, I met Chris Fauci. I think it was around 2000 He had gotten promoted to the crisis negotiation group are a unit I should say at Quantico, Virginia at the FBI Academy, which was about 35 miles south of where I work. Since we were both in the discipline, we both heard of each other rather quickly. And we were introduced by mutual friends. And the rest, as they say, is history. He's the founder and CEO of The Black Swan group, he brought me on a part time basis back in 2010, full time in 2017. And in that time, we have traveled all over the globe, teaching businesses and individuals how to apply hostage negotiations, practices and principles to their lives, whether it's personal or professional. So that's in a nutshell, who I am. In my in my basic background, I was listening to a couple of different episodes that you were on previously, so I can have some context and to be able to provide some color to the audience listening here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your first hostage negotiation? Was it the bridge? The seven hour standoff? Yeah, even the idea of having someone engaged in a hostile environment because we all know us. It weather, obviously, not a life or death situation. But even if it's just hostile back and forth in your face, even 10 minutes feels like 10 hours, so I can't even fathom seven hours. Yeah, it was seven hours on an undulating bridge, in the Washington DC area in November, and it was cold. That's one of the things that sticks out in my mind most is how bad I started to feel physically when the sun went down, when the sun went down in that the water or the wind over the across the bridge was just, it was unbearable at times. And you're right, when you're engaged in that type of conversation time almost standstill, and you don't realize that you've been engaged for as long as you have until after you get off of there and you're in. And people tell you, we started this thing at one o'clock and not and now it's 830 in the evening. And we're just now wrapping this thing up. So in that event, it was we were dealing with a young man in the FBI would qualify him as a Swami. And a Swami is just an acronym for suicide with other motivations. Then, meaning this is a person who is engaged in suicidal behavior for purposes other than creating or committing suicide and, and that is he's trying to send a message to someone else. And it was his estranged wife. And we had been playing cat and mouse with this individual for the better part of a week. We had obtained warrants for his arrest, he was he would call us and tell us where he was in DC and we'd send the District of Columbia police department to the location and he would be gone. And he thought it was a game and the final move in this game was him to go up on this bridge and and threaten to jump in that pretty much got everyone's attention. And so for seven hours, my partner and I Gil engaged him and dialogue, we knew that he was engaged in suicidal behavior from motivation to other than the suicide, however, doesn't mean that we deviate from what we're supposed to do. Because at the end of the day, the SWAMI when he realizes that the jig is up, they're always about one upmanship. And the ultimate one upmanship is to jump is to jump. And that's ultimately, what he wound up doing. It was precipitated by the fact that he got shot in the behind with a less lethal round. And that's what sent him jumping over the side. But he wound up surviving. We, I thought that we did a fairly decent job because we were able to talk him from the point where he initially threatened to jump. If he had jumped at that point, he would have killed himself because there were there were construction barges parked beneath the bridge that we were worried about him hitting and there were also pilots that went into the warp pylons that went into the water at an angle so it the depth of the water at that location wasn't what it looked like on the surface. So we were able to get him back close to the Virginia shoreline. And that's where he ultimately jumped in. It was mostly water and silt. So he's arrived. That's fantastic to hear. And that's it, man. That's a testament that's the sure first, that's your first job out the seven hour standoff and freezing temperatures that really get more difficult from there. Do you just remember that one is just ringing true? You're like after this, you're like, Okay, I think I'm I think I'm ready for this gig. Yeah, that's a great question. I don't think anybody's ever posed a question like that. And for me, I didn't have any previous experience. So all I relied on how I was trained. And one of my mentors Dana law horn, he was the team leader at the time. His mantra was stick to your training, your training will never fail you in that It's something that I've imported into all my teams is that your training is never going to fail you. And so all I had to rely on was that training, and I did. And the ultimate result was we saved the guys, we saved the guy's life. And so it, it was like seeing a unicorn for the first time. Because in the books and in the classroom, this is how they said it was going to work. And so I employed how they said it was going to work. And you know what they were right. And it was like seeing a unicorn for the first time. And when you do that, you can't wait to see the next unicorn. So you're now confident, and you're excited. And you want to went to the next one, when's the next one, when's the next one. And so you're always in with each one, you're always learning something just a little bit different. While the classroom training in the role play. And the practical exercises that we engaged in were great, nothing beats going out on a real job. Because there's so many dynamics, there's so many variables that you have absolutely no control over that you have to manage in the moment. It got easier from the perspective that I wanted to learn more. And because I had that enthusiasm. I didn't consider it work. Yeah, so like proof of concept, like I read this, let's see if it applies in real life. And it's funny that you say that I have a gentleman that that came on the podcast, he runs a really large successful real estate team. He's ex Air Force. So it's a very standard operating procedure type of guy. And he's like, it's like when you have the training, you stick to the training, and then it helps you quiet the noise. Yeah, really helps you quiet the noise and then just default instantly to what your training was. And then you can just act and you don't have to think about it. It sets up a a response mechanism within you so that it's almost muscle memory. And I get asked all the time, how could you do that all the emotions and what's at stake. And you tamp that down? And so you become less reactionary. Which is always coming from emotion and you become more responsive, which is always coming from cognitive thought. That is okay, so now we've accidentally created this beautiful, perfect segue, Derek created this beautiful segue my friend. So you said a quote that stood out to me. And I wrote it down. I put exclamation marks around it. Your brain works up to 31% better when in a positive state of mind. Yep. So let's talk about this because I feel like this is something that's insanely actionable. Because you have got, like your one huge variable end of the spectrum where you're dealing with hostage situations, suicide attempts, stuff like that. So you are dealing with a lot of emotion, a lot of adrenaline about a physical response. So what is some advice that you can give some tactical advice that you can give to someone that is applying that in their day with their team with a hostile co worker, or just in general just in life just to be able to quiet that noise so they can have their mental clarity and metacognition back? Yeah, so going into a difficult conversation. It's all about mindset. Right? It's all about mindset. And if you go into a difficult conversation, number one with curiosity, number two, the conversation assuming that you have something to learn from the other side. That in and of itself, will prevent you from getting triggered during that conversation, your brain does not work like that. You can't be angry and curious. At the same time, you got to choose one or the other. And so if you go in judgment free, and I don't care how long you've known this person for five minutes, five years. As it pertains to the conversation, there's something going on with their side that you have no clue about. And if you stay open to that, you'll always going to be on the lookout for it. And if you're always on the lookout for it, the chances of you becoming triggered during the conversation is drastically reduced. The second thing is, if it's a difficult conversation, you understand that there are going to be negative emotions and dynamics associated with the conversation if there are negative emotions and dynamics associated with the conversation, but at some point during the conversation, you're going to get attacked. Yeah, just accept that fact. It's going to catch you off guard, the attack is not going to make any sense to you. It's not going to line up with the reality of the environment of the circumstances. But you know what it doesn't have to, because it's certainly an important part of what the other side is trying to convey. So I go in with a curious mindset. I go in and set accepting the fact that I'm going to get attacked, and how am I going to brace myself for the attack? Number one, I'm going to stay curious. Right when most of us get attacked during the conversation, we eat it we do want to say We attack back fight, or we pivot and go to somewhere else in the conversation, flight. And the other option for you is to stay curious and make friends. So instead of if I attack you, during the course of the conversation, your immediate thought should be, Where's that coming from? What am I missing? If they're lashing out, they're trying to tell me one of three things A, there's something that is extremely important to them, that they're trying to convey, and I'm not getting it. Number two, they are under tremendous pressure on their side of the table, and I have failed to acknowledge that pressure. Or number three, of course, they're doing it to try to manipulate me. Regardless of which one it is, I got to figure it out, because it's not going anywhere. It's not it's going to be it's going to remain a part of the conversation, that Specter is going to hang in the air until I acknowledge it. And so those are the simplest tactics, curiosity, and acceptance. If you can, if you've prepared for this discussion, as you're preparing for this discussion, if you can vent to the confident before going into the room, the good, the bad, the ugly about this conversation, the more you get off of your chest, before you go in, the less likely that inner voice is going to come out during the conversation. And so lay it out to somebody that's not going to judge you and just talk to them about the good, the bad, and, and the ugly. Remembering that your counterpart is not the adversary, regardless of whatever the issue is the issue is your adversary. Your challenge is how do I make my counterpart a teammate? In a problem solving venture to help me solve this issue? When I was on the phone with hostage takers, the hostages were not the issue. The issue was, you're still inside, you're refusing to come out? How do I turn this around? How do we resolve this successfully with you as my teammate, as opposed to you as being on the opposite end of the spectrum from me? Yep, on the same side of the table, so that I guess it just comes down to thinking about how do we make this a win win situation for this conversation, you're going to get a response from me over this Win Win concept, because you got to ask yourself, Does that even exist, there's win more and win less. But is there really a win win. And regardless of what you're asking from the other side, you're asking them to surrender something. And at some point, they're going to have a negative response to that, even if it's a split down the middle, a split down the middle means I'm getting, if even if we split it 5050, that means I'm getting less than the 6040 I was looking for. And there are going to be negative emotions and dynamics associated with that. And so it's just understanding that we're working together to help solve this, that'll put us both in a better position, maybe not necessarily a win win, but we're both going to walk away, feeling heard, feeling respected. And that's the at the end of the day, that's what we're driving for, even in what some people view as one off, or transactional type of event like a hostage take. The last impression is the lasting impression. If I tell this guy on the phone, I'm going to be outside when you come out, I make sure that I'm outside when he comes out. Because I want that last impression to be a lasting impression in every difficult conversation, law enforcement or corporate world or personal. People remember the most intense moment and then they remember how you made them feel at the end. And all of us are in relatively small communities and environments. And if you don't think your reputation, good or bad is going to proceed. You're fooling yourself. And so we get caught up. On the first impression. And I'm not telling you first impressions are not important, but your lasting impressions are just as important. Sure. So I guess the closest thing to a win win would be to just be able to leave the conversation with understanding. Yes, leave the Congress at ease, understanding and leaving them feeling like Ben and I didn't make a deal, but doggone it, he's a straight shooter. He was transparent. He protected sincerity. He was genuine. He made me feel good at the end, even though that we didn't come because Here's what you want, when you want me to pick up the phone the next time you call, even if we don't make a deal today, even if we don't come to an agreement today, the next time you call, you want me to pick up the phone, you want me to respond to your email, you want me to speak highly of you when I interact with other people that may cross your path. And so that's why we talk about the last impression being the lasting impression and being able to make the other side feel like they had their say, and they feel like you were deferential. They feel like you respected them and their time. I love that, I love that we can get into a little bit more because I want to get I want to go down the tactical empathy, importance of silence, I want to go down that rabbit hole with you about the reception of information and the reception like you're talking about there where somebody is talking, and then you're really being present with them, the mirroring and all of that, before we do that, I want to take you down the path of giving information, maybe some tips and tricks for somebody that is in a leadership position. How can they best package information because a lot of us are in situations in business in life to where we have to provide feedback, both positive and negative. And I think that the biggest Hiccup and a lot of organizations, is the delivery of negative feedback is either too heavy, or completely avoided altogether. So both are two sides of the same coin. Right? Mary, you don't get done, which you don't get done. So if you're maybe speaking to a leader, or someone that even has an assistant or somebody that has anyone, that's anyone that you have to provide feedback, do you have any kind of any frames, any, any tactics that you can use when you're providing feedback, alright, so when you're talking about negative feedback, you're talking about providing information to someone that they're not going to want to hear. Absolutely. And if they know what's coming, they're already dealing with negative emotions and dynamics as a result of it. And you are doing yourself a disservice you're doing your you're doing them a disservice if you are not focused on proactively mitigating those negative before you jump into the meat of the conversation. And these are pre emptive labels, if you will, these are what we call accusations audits, where you are making a situationally insightful, intelligent guess about what they're going to think, when they hear this message. What are those net? What are the what are those negative opinions, assumptions, or impressions that they're going to have about you about the feedback about the organization, and you're going to start the conversation with those. If it's nothing more than this is probably going to sound harsh, it's probably going to feel like a punch in the gut to you, you probably are going to take this personal, you're probably even wondering if other people are being held to the same standard. Silence in between all three of those helps them to contemplate. And what you're doing is you are proactively diffusing the negatives, you're taking authority, and permission away from them for using those negatives against you during the course of the conversation. And as a leader, there is no clear way for you to demonstrate to those who are your direct reports that you're concerned about them that this conversation is more than about their performance, that you are extending an olive branch, that tactical empathy Olive Branch. Because once you get to the point of conversation where you actually provide that constructive feedback, you want them, you want them to be more receptive, and they usually are because of the reciprocal nature of tactical empathy. This is why we do it first, because we're going to call it in on ourselves later in the conversation. Hmm. Okay, so it's all about getting out in front of those negatives. And as a boss, as a leader, you know, what your direct reports are going through, especially when you're going to deliver negative feedback, you know, what they're probably thinking. And you notice that I said probably may might in front of all of those labels. I'm not saying that. It's a fact I'm saying this is what you probably are thinking. And the important thing to remember here is that we're not looking for feedback ourselves. We're not looking for them to say, Yeah, I was thinking that or No, I wasn't thinking that you may get that response, but that's not the purpose of the proactive labeling or The accusations on it, the purpose of them is to clear up their mind, go back to what you talked about earlier. 31% better in a positive state. All right, I want them in a positive state of mind when I lower the hammer, when I take them to task on performance deficiency, I want them to be clear of mine, I don't want them to be viewing the feedback through an emotional prison. So that's why I'm going to mitigate those emotions as best I can on the front end of the conversation. And talk about the importance of silence throughout all of this, because this isn't something that and the reason I'm saying this is because it's like you and I understand because I come from a corporate sales background. So I understand the importance of tactical silence in the conversation. But a lot of people will interject one in that during that delivery, they're not going to allow for this silence to fill these gaps so that they can actually process things. He talked about the importance of silence in these situations. Ah, yes. Relatively speaking, silence is probably one of the easiest skills conceptually, anyway, practically, it's the hardest skill. To your point, people don't know how to shut their mouths. silence makes people so uncomfortable, that they don't know what to do with it. And so they figure that if, if I leave the silence in too long, I'm going to cede my chance or my turn in this conversation to do what we all like to do is convince influence. And the power of silence makes people It makes people so uncomfortable, that the other side will likely jump into the conversation. And that's what we're in pursuit of when we engage them, we want them to contemplate and then we want them to feel uncomfortable, and we want them to provide us more information. So deliberately creating a void in the conversation is huge. If I could get more people to do it on regular basis, conversations would flow a lot more freely. But the whole purpose behind dynamic silence is to get the other side to contemplate, get the other side to provide us with what more information. That's what negotiations is all about. It's an information gathering process. You're not gathering information if you're running your mouth. And so I tell all my coaching clients Shut the front door. The average time is uncomfortable as it's gonna make you feel the average times two to three seconds. How do I know that? When I deliberately employ dynamic silence, I start counting to myself 1000 to 1000, and make it a game? How long has it been going to keep his mouth shut before he jumps back into the conversation, usually two to three seconds. The longest that we've counted is 12. So if I start to approach 910 1000, you still haven't jumped into a conversation. There's a problem. This situation is worse than I thought it was. Or I am failing to be sensitive to something that's really important to you. And so once I get around 10 seconds, and you still haven't jumped in the conversation, I'm probably going to prompt you a little bit with that specific label. It seems like I'm failing to be sensitive to something that's really important to you. And that's usually enough to take care of that logjam and to have them open up and explain more, because that's an essence what they're telling you. If they're, if you're in a dynamic silence, quote, battle, that's what they're telling you, this is worse than you think you are missing something. So I own it, it's on me, it's not on you. I'm failing to be sensitive to something that's really important to you. And that's usually enough. This goes back to that concept of curiosity. We get so wrapped around the axle around or behind what someone says, or what someone does, that we don't try to figure out where it's coming from. In every single difficult conversation. There is a presenting dynamic and emotion. And then there's a latent dynamic or an emotion and you will find that what people say, they don't really mean there's an ulterior message behind the words that they use. You will find that people ask terrible questions, they ask question A, and they want the answer to question B. But for whatever reason, they're afraid to ask question B. You will find that people are going to fall silent or attack you for no apparent reason. And instead of getting all in your own feelings, go back to that curiosity mindset and ask yourself where is this coming from? So if you hear a statement from the other side, it doesn't make sense to you. Before you respond, That statement, in essence, let's figure out where it's coming from. If it's nothing more than hitting them with another label sounds like you have a reason for saying that people have a reason for saying everything. And you will find that when you label like that you're confused about a statement, you say, sounds like you got a reason for saying that. And then they provide you with further information that has nothing to do with the state. Sounds like you have a reason for asking if I were to ask you, Ben, what are you doing at five o'clock today, when you get off of this call? Immediately? What goes through your head? Oh, boy, how's my life going to change? Based on how I answer this question? How's my life at five o'clock on a change? Based on how I answered this question. But if you're familiar with the black swan method, you're not going to answer the question, you're going to say, to me, it seems like you have a reason for ask. And then you will find what the true question is, what the true motivation behind it is. And so that's a part of that curiosity, mindset. Let's figure out what where the behavior is coming from where the statement is coming from, because it usually doesn't match up with what actually came out of their mouth. And I feel like, so for those listening, if you're in a sales profession, technically, all of life is sales in some regard. Think about the difference. If I can narrow down the difference between a bad or an average sales professional versus a master sales professional, it'd be probably narrowed down to that, like a what you said about the quality of the questions that they're asking. They're not asking really good questions, and be when you get down to that very end, and you present the price and you present the pricing, and then there's silence. You sit, it's awkward, it's uncomfortable. And then instead, so take what Derek just said. And next time, you're in a situation like this, instead of sitting there, and then just word vomiting. Instead, as after 10 seconds goes by, like you said, One 1002 1003 1000. And if after 10 seconds, there's still silence to say, this looks like there's something missing here. It looks like I am missing something here. That hasn't come up. So then, is there any further prompting? How can you politely continue that prompt just be like something to the regard of, hey, it looks like I'm missing something here. Is there any other things that you would need? That's usually enough? That's because that's what they're telling you. Right? That's, that's the dynamic, you're not making anything up out of whole cloth, you're saying it to the other side, this is the data you're giving me. I throw out a price. And you're staring there with a blank quizzical look on your face. And it's been going on for at least eight seconds. Now. What why? What are they telling you? They're telling you I got a problem with that price? There's no way I'm going to be able to make that price. How am I going to go back and explain to my bosses that this is as far as you're willing to go, all of those things are, so you're overloading them and they're stymied, and they're looking for a way out. Seems like I'm failing to be sensitive to something that's really important to you sounds or it looks like something just crossed your mind. That's it looks like it. I'm sensing some hesitancy, any one of those would be appropriate, because that's what they're screaming at you. They're screaming at you that I don't like this, there's there is hesitancy here. And so for you to pick up. And then they never said they never said this is that I've got a problem with the price they've ever said that I'm hesitant in moving forward in the conversation based on the price. That's just what you picked up. That's what your intuition is telling you. And if your listeners don't take anything else away from this discussion, rely on your intuition is going to be screaming at you what's going on with the counterpart. And it's never it's rarely wrong. It's going to be screaming at you, you're going to be you're picking up on data that you have no idea you're picking up on your conscious brain processes, 40 bits of information per second. Your subconscious brain processes 20 million bits of information per second. You're picking up data out of the atmosphere based on what the the counterpart is giving you so rely on it. It's never going to fail you it's kept us alive for 1000s of years. It's never going to fail you. And so for you to pick that up, here's the here's the golden ticket. You are articulating for them something that they cannot articulate themselves. And when you're able to do that, you are there's no clear way just to convince or to convey to the other side that you are dialed in. You're dialed in to them. How what their perspective is what the lay of the look lay Looks like from their side of the table, when you start to identify things that they have not said, Oh, it's huge. It's huge. And then you put yourself on their side of the table subconsciously, because you're like, This guy understands me. Yes. And the flip side of that is, now I owe him. And they're thinking now I owe him he has. This is why we sequence the conversations the way we do, you mentioned it early. It's always tactical empathy. First, your goal and objective comes last. We do it first. Because we want to take advantage of the reciprocal nature of tactical empathy. It feels so good to receive it, that your counterpart, now subconsciously is obligated to give it back to you. Eric, I want to get I want to get into tactical empathy here shortly. But first, I want to ask you a question. Why are we so terrible at communication? Why is that? Why is that the default? Because you would think it'd be the opposite. You think as humans, that we all are like, okay, communication, we get this thing, do you think it'd be a natural thing. But for all of these people that are listening to this, and as I'm sure you've seen, by communication skills are going to be it's just night and day difference with people that are successful in any regard. It's night and day difference. But people that have communication skills, and they understand the get what you're saying, and it clicks, they're able to go off to the races. So why do you think this is and now we're leaning more towards a word vomit society, where everyone just has to scream their opinions at everyone. And there's less and less communication going on? Why do you think that is? And what can we do to remedy this, um, to solve the world problems that one in one, quote, no pressure man. Russia and Ukraine on one quote, when you boil it down to its very essence, the style of communications that we espouse that the black swan group takes energy, and it takes effort. Most of us are too lazy to do it. There there, there are five different levels to listening. Even those people who think that they're good listeners are underperforming. And that's because they have they fail to realize that there's five different levels to listening. There's intermittent listening, where I'm listening to you, Ben long enough to get the gist of what you're saying. And then I refocus on my own internal monologue. Or the next step is rebuttal. Listening, I'm listening. So I until I hear something I know, I can argue with now, I'm just waiting for you to shut your mouth. So I can jump into the conversation to tell you how brilliant I am. That's where most of us do our dancing throughout the day. That's an easy lift. It doesn't take a lot of effort to do that. And that's why most people spend their time during that, at the deepest level is the empathic listening. That's where you're listening for emotion and logic and life's narrative and symbolism and meaning. And to listen at that level, wipes you out. It just takes too much energy. When I got off of that bridge, after seven hours, I must have gone home and slept for 15. That's how wiped out I was because it takes so much energy and effort. So back to your original question. Why don't most people do it? Because their people are lazy. We're in a microwave society, we want instant gratification, we make up our mind, where do we want this conversation will go and we push in that direction, regardless of whatever resistance we're getting from the other side. Because that's what our goal and objective ultimately is. And we get transfixed on the fact that if I would just, if I'm just able to explain to Ben, what I'm talking about, if he had all of that information, he could see that this is the appropriate next step. And then Ben on the other side of the table is going nope, nope, nope, don't want it. And we take that stance because what have I not done, I haven't taken the time. I haven't used the energy or the effort to demonstrate to you that I understand your frame of reference, this is what the environment looks like to you. And it's always or at least there's a 66% chance that how it looks to you is going to be different than how it looks to me. You can't go into these conversations, treating people the way that you want to be treated. You have to go into the conversations treating them the way they want to be treated. Because there are three personality types that we deal with in in the black swan method. Three different personality types, which means whatever type you are, there's a 66% chance that the person that you're engaging is one of the other two types. So if you go in thinking that I'm a guy who's all about data and information And if I treat them the way I want to be treated, I'm going to go in with all of my data and information. And those two other two personality types have no use for that. And so it's just a matter of effort. It's just a matter of trying harder. It's just a matter of being curious. Nobody's curious, in today's world, this Russia, Ukraine thing that talks about you, we're not going to negotiate this, we're not gonna negotiate that there's no curiosity. There's no curiosity there. And as a result, people are set in their ways, and they dig in. And now ego becomes a part of the equation, because they view any compromises, capitulation, and they're worried about how they're going to be viewed on the outside. So it's a combination of all of those things. But the bottom line is, people don't assume that they've got something to learn to think they know it all. Yeah, and one of the quotes that stands out to me from doing these interviews and from talking to all these people, and being in the groups that I'm in is, life changes when you and this is in a social context. So it's a slight pivot, but not quite. Life changes when you go from the perspective of trying to be the most interesting to the most interested. And then life changes, because then you are just like, to your point, that's when the curiosity arises, you stop trying to be the most interesting person in the room, you start trying to be the most interested person in the room. And the flip side of that is, the interested person becomes interesting. By default, the interested person becomes interesting when you start to project interest in because all of us have this innate desire to have somebody else understand what we're going through, I don't care what space you operate in, I don't care what corner of the globe you come in, we all have this internal drive, to have somebody else understand what we're going through. And when someone does that, for us, we're giving those people dopamine hits, we're changing chemicals in their brain. And they don't know why they like talking to Ben, they just know that every time they talk to Ben, they feel better about everything. And it's simply because you're, you're lending that empathic ear, and interested people become interesting because you're an outlier. You're a one off you are that unicorn because most people don't care. to that level, you don't believe me? Then I want you. When we conclude here and all and all of your listeners, I challenge you to do the same thing. Go into let's just say Starbucks. Order your coffee, ask the barista how they're doing. And then when they respond, whether it's good or bad. You label that response. It sounds like you've been having a good day sounds like the boss has been kicking you in teeth since you arrived at 530 this morning, either one. And watch how much more information they vomit up about how their day is going. Because people go into Starbucks 100 People will ask those baristas how they're doing 99% 99 Most people don't care. That's just a throwaway salutation, especially here in the West, how you doing is another way to say hello, they don't really care. And if you show that you're an outlier, that you're that unicorn that you're interested, all of a sudden you become interesting. And they want to satisfy you because you have satisfied them. I love it. And I'd like to say selfishly, but also it's not selfishly, because this is a benefit for everyone. But having a podcast helps with this. Because I'm able to just go and actually like curiosity is my thing on a daily basis now, so I get to be curious are really cool people such as yourself. And I learned a long time ago, thankfully, and it was because of failed relationships. I'm a very high energy person. I'm through the walls like banging off the ceiling kind of energy person. I used to think that was the only way to communicate to your point that you brought up that there's three different personas here. You got like the analytical guy, and then you've got you have introverts extroverts. And then so now I'm very purposeful with my cadences, my tonalities with how I communicate with people, I communicate, I meet people where they're at. So like I talked to you like, like how you communicate. I can't speak to you if I came into this just bouncing off the walls, like maybe you'd be like, Whoa, buddy. Yeah, I don't know about this. So let's talk about mirroring a bit because I think that's a good segue for that. And I know that you've written extensively on this Yeah, mirroring is and it should not be new construed as mirroring body language. There's a lot of writings and research out there on the importance of mirroring. But you fold your arms, I fold my arms, you touch your face, I touch my face, we're not talking about that we're talking about repeating back the last 123, no more than five words of what the person just said, it's an attending and listening technique, there's, there's, arguably, there's not a better way to demonstrate that you're dialed in, because you're actually using their words coming out of your mouth carries so much more weight than like a paraphrase like you putting the meaning in another form. And so the power of the mirror is that it conveys that you're dialed in, and it encourages them to continue talk. So it conveys you're dialed in and encourages them to continue to talk. And so if I were to say to you, Hey, Ben, this is driving me crazy. She doesn't listen to me anymore. It makes me angry. Your response to that, if you want me to give me more information is makes you angry. You're asking me a question. You're saying, Please tell me more about this anger that you're feeling. Or you inflect downwards and you say makes you angry, indicating that you understand. Either way, I'm getting the dopamine hit, because you're repeating back my exact words. You can't do that if you're not paying attention. So that's the signal to me that you're dialed in. And again, I feel good about it. Again, it's a gift and what gifts do to the other side. Any gift, it obligates the other side reciprocate, and they want to and they want to reciprocate, because they feel good, or they may want to, they may want to reciprocate, because they don't like the burden of the obligation, and they want to give it back to you. So it's off off their shoulders. And so that's the power of the mirror. So we've talked about, I've talked about labels, you've asked specific questions about mirrors, and dynamic silence, those are our quick two plus one. That's how we bundled them together quick two plus one labels, mirrors and dynamic silence, and you are going to put yourself in a better position to influence the other side, if you get your head around those concepts. I love it. And then also to exactly what you just said, I love your frameworks and that like your packaging to this because it's something that I've done in sales at a really high level for a long time now. And for people that are listening, that are sales professionals that are either veterans or people that are maybe getting out in life and that this is applies to all sales, it's either b2b b2c real estate, what he's talking about with this mirroring of the of what they're saying, instead of telling your customer or your prospect or your potential client self telling them what the features and benefits or whatever your product is, you just ask them questions that gets them to articulate themselves that they would be interested in that specific feature and benefit. So then when you get to the end of the presentation, you can be able to say, you told me that this is really important to you. And then you can bake it in. And so now that you put it in that framework, it makes a lot more sense as to why that works, instead of just being like, people think that this is important. And this is important. And this is important. But instead because you like you said with the tactical empathy in the beginning of the conversation, you were able to ask open ended questions that guided them to be able to say that in their own words that you're repeating back to them through mirroring. Yeah, and one thing you pointed on there is is questions to uncover information. And we're as a group, as a company, we're moving away from asking direct questions to get information from the other side. Because if you take into consideration the three negotiated personality types, there's one of those three hates direct questions. They feel like they're being interrogated, and you will actually shut them down in the conversation if you start peppering them with a bunch of what and how questions so we're using what and how questions to shape thinking and to problem solve the same question that you want to have answered, you can ask via an asking label, it sounds like x is really important to you seems like you have a vision on what are good or our service is going to do for you. Would you be opposed to walking me through that vision? That's the same thing as asking what do you think about us? What do you think about our product without asking them that and they are more people are less resistant to an asking label than they are to a direct question. So at the outset of a conversation, I always take a real estate conversation You sit down with a prospective buyer or seller and you say you've done a lot of research seems like you probably have a vision on what this whole process looks like, Would you be opposed to walking me through that vision. And now you're going to hear exactly what they know, it could be expansive, it could be not a lot of knowledge, but you're giving them what the opportunity to speak first. And you're going to listen, you're going to label you're going to mirror those things that benefit you, you're going to label any or mirror anything that is problematic, or is negative in nature. And once you flesh that out, what you've given them an opportunity to walk you through what they know, because people don't get to ask a lot. What do you know, we come in as experts and sales experts, thinking that if I just explained to this person, all the benefit to it'll be a no brainer. You know, if they were just educated, if I can gels graveyard, and we go into these rooms, with all of our data and information, and we throw it on the table and say, here's why you should make this decision on the other side goes, whoa, I'm not doing that. Why? Because we haven't taken the time to demonstrate for them, that we understand where they're coming from. We go in with our goal and objective and explaining explaining, then we get pushed back and we're left scratching your head. I thought that went well. I don't understand why didn't you get a call back? My goal objective as a hostage negotiator was to what to get the people out, get the bad guy to surrender. That was my goal objective. How many times do you think I lead with that? In the initial portion of the conversation, the answer never. And it's it's all a matter of giving them an opportunity to talk first. And that's what most of us don't do. And you give them an opportunity to talk first it goes back to that reciprocity. And then you're gonna say, after you've labeled and mirrored their responses, you'll say to them are you against me? telling you what the reality of the market is? Or the reality of the product is the reality of the service? Yes or no oriented question. I'm protecting their autonomy. I'm not driving for yes, that's another thing that you salespeople need to get out of. Is your addiction to Yes, we are. Yes. addicted. And we are Yes. battered. Stop driving people for a yes. This idea of Yes. Momentum mirror agreement? Yes. Will propositions is nonsense. Did I say that loud enough? It's nonsense. Stop doing it. Because people know when you are driving them for a yes. They do not like feeling obligated to something they haven't volunteered for? And even if you use Yes, momentum, and you get the ultimate Yes. In the Yes, momentum just states that if I get them to say yes to a bunch of little things at the beginning of the conversation, when I get to the big yes, chances are greater that they're going to say yes. Some people in academia refer to these as Yes, tie downs. Think about that concept for a second. You are trying to tie your counterpart down and you think they like that? Mm hmm. Yeah. And even if you get a yes, at the end, how voluntary is that? Yes. How reluctant is that? Yes. And now they've got given you that? Yes. How much pain? Are they going to cause you as this relationship is established? Because they felt forced into that? Yes. So my point is any question where you want a yes answer, you can get the same result by changing it to a no oriented question, thereby protecting their autonomy. And to this day, I'm continually amazed at what people will agree to when you allow them to say no, that they otherwise wouldn't talk to your driving them for yes. I think I think that, that that's probably where we need to end it. And I have one more question for you, Derek. It is not a yes or no question. But it's a question that I enjoy. And hopefully you will too. What is one thing that most people don't know about you that you are most proud of? In your life or business? One Pete one thing that people don't know about me that I'm most proud of in my life for business, so I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you two answers. I'm gonna give you a cop out answer, but I would be remiss if I didn't, and that is the fact that I raised two daughters who grew up to be a decent human being and there are people that are close to me that that know that. But that probably is what I'm most proud of. I got them up and out of the house, and they're on their way doing their thing in the adult world. And so as a father, I'm satisfied because of that, but the other. The other thing that most people don't know is a case that I worked back in 97 98 where I was a part of a narcotics unit, and I was working a drug and gun case on a particular gang in my city. And somebody who I thought was affiliated with the gang attempted to murder, somebody that they thought was cooperating with me, and she was a prostitute and she was addicted to crack cocaine, she was a prostitute and they tried to kill her. And I worked with this victim. When I say work with I had to put her up in witness with sec, witness security, I had to shop for her, I had to cater to her, I had to clean her up, get her off of the drugs. And in order to get a conviction from these guys. And I'm most proud of that, because I gave her the same level of police service that I would have given her if she was a nun, in a rectory at a Catholic church. So it didn't matter that in some people's eyes, she wasn't worth the time or the effort. And not many people know about how much effort I put into that case in order to a clean her up because she was my star witness. I needed her sober I needed her clean. And it was not an easy task. And I was able to do so that's probably what I'm most proud of. That's a beautiful story. Beautiful story there. Appreciate you for sharing that my friend. So where can people find you? Let's plug this plug the book. So you have a book out? Yeah, ego authority failure, published it in 2019. Second Edition is coming out next month. You can get it on Amazon, audible. Everywhere fine books are sold. And then if you want to if you want to hit me up info at Black Swan ltd.com. We've got people that are monitoring that almost around the clock. So you'll get something from me if you try to reach out in that regard. And we're not we're back to traveling again. So stay tuned to the website when we when you see us taking our show on the road coming to a city near you feel free to join us. Sounds good. Alright, everyone. This is been the action Academy with Derek gone, signing off. Bam. You've been listening to the action Academy podcast helping you to choose what you want with who you want. When you want. You've been given the gift of freedom. Don't turn your back on that. We hope you've enjoyed the show. And we hope you've gotten some practical and useful information make sure to like rate and review the show. We'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hook up with us on social media. Remember financial independence is freedom. The freedom fly