WELCOME TO FINANCIAL BREAKDOWN FRIDAY.
The Episodes where we dive deep into the finances, income, investments, savings rate, and strategies of the "millionaires next door".
Seth Jones is a Military Veteran turned Mortgage Loan Officer based in Florida. Growing up, his family never discussed finances and he knew that was changing with his generation.
Now a husband and father of a little girl, it's his mission in life to set up enough passive cashflow income (4.5% or total portfolio annually) to spend as much time as he can with his family. He saves over 70% of his income now, learn how in this episode (no, not from winning the lottery!)
What You'll Learn:
Are You Stuck In Your W2 Job, Relationships, And Life?
Good - Let's Change That:
So I think for me, it's creating a very compelling vision, and making your goals very clear, and then committing to whatever those goals are. Because once you're truly committed to a vision or to a goal, then it's just a matter of doing what it takes to get there and the rest will take care of itself. Welcome to the action Academy podcast staring back while I celebrate freedom, the show where we help you achieve financial independence with the mindset methods and actionable steps from guests who've already earned their freedom flag the freedom fly. Choose to do what you want, what do you want with who you want with who you want, when you want when you want with another episode today. Now, here's your host, Brian Luebben. what's up what's up? Welcome back to another episode of the action Academy podcast. I'm your host, Brian Luebben, bringing you the mindsets, methods and actionable steps for you to earn your freedom back into your life. This week's episode, and actually the inaugural episode of my financial case, study Fridays. So today's gonna be my buddy Seth Jones from Florida. He's a mortgage loan officer. And he is very, very active in one of the communities that I'm in on Facebook online. The bigger pockets money community, the bigger pockets money podcast, his show that's about investing in money management when it comes to financial independence. And it comes to stock portfolios, stuff like that, like real meat and potatoes, nuts and bolts kind of stuff. And Seth and I met in the online community, he always answers the questions that everyone has to ask. And he answered some of the very high level. And he himself is financially independent. And he's done it through stock investing through real estate. And he really does a good job of breaking it down from a teacher's perspective and from a learner's perspective and from a student's perspective. So I thought it'd be great for him to come on, we get really really granular really nuts and bolts into finances, in his finances in particular, and finding what specific levers that you can pull with your savings rate with your income production it with your investment allocations to craft the life of your dreams and craft a life that you really, really enjoy living, whether it be traveling around the world, or just having more time with your friends and family, which is what he likes to do with his young child and his wife. So before we dive into sets interview today, I want to propose a trade to you listening. Here's what I'll trade you. I will trade you a 30 minute podcast that is created, produced, edited, researched, if you will trade me a writing in a review. That sounds like a deal. Good, because already did the podcast. So without any further ado, set downs. Right, Mr. Seth Jones? Welcome, sir. Thank you for having me. Man, I'm very excited to have you on. So I've seen you over so for people listening, Seth is very active over in the bigger pockets, money, community. And as we're actually meeting him met, virtually, I'll say, and it's been cool to watch because whenever somebody asks a question in that community, and a lot of you probably know, the bigger pockets podcast for real estate, they also have a money podcast called The BiggerPockets money show, with Scott trench and Mindy Jensen, and they have an online Facebook community. So if you feel inclined, please go join that today. That'd be awesome. And anytime anybody asks a question in the group or in the community, whether it be an entry level question or something that's on a very high topic, or a very high level of answer, Seth is always the one to come in and swoop in with his magic cape and save the day. So Seth, introduce yourself to the people. Tell us about your backstory and how this relationship with money began. Well, you're very generous, Brian, I really appreciate that. Really, for me, really my relationship with money and a little bit of my backstory. I grew up in a lower middle class family. And we had a lot of struggles with finances both parents, I had a few divorces I grew up with and parents were financially illiterate. So early on, there was a lot that I was exposed to. That was a non example, a lot of examples of money mismanagement, that at an early age, I realized I did not want to emulate and for me, it was very important early on to I guess it was an area of interest early on to focus on how to manage money. And it was apparent to me that the ability to manage money well lead to a life that avoided a lot of difficulties that my family had gone through, and really would lead to the type of life that I was trying to live a life of freedom and life where I get to live on my own terms without necessarily worrying about slaving away at a job or paying back creditors that are knocking at your door. Mm hmm. You said you have a new model one? Correct. You got a little family going now? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have a beautiful wife, Selena and a little girl. So how did they play into this whole relationship with money that you've cultivated, they've played an incredible role and really have helped me shift my perspective, early in my financial journey, I think I probably started where a lot of motivated sales professional start, I was focused on generating a high income, and with the goal of accumulating a high net worth. And I had a lot of self worth tied to those goals. And some things along the way, my family and my faith, work their way in in a way that have sort of changed my priorities. So my wife and daughter are obviously a huge part of that. Now, the money is more a driver for leading a life where I can spend the amount of time that I want to, with my wife, with my daughter, and also support them provide, you know, the life that they dream of, or provide a comfortable life for for their future. Man, that is amazing. That's a very noble cause and one very close to home, because that is also why I'm doing this. I don't have kids yet. And that's probably still another like three to five years down the line, which is perfectly fine. But what I'm doing right now is doing the blocking and tackling, and the prep work needed so that when it is Showtime, and it's crunch time, and I'm heading to the hospital with diapers and getting ready to go, I'm going to be financially set with a like a nice concrete foundation. So that while I'm stressing about everything else, I'm not having to stress about the financial aspect of it, because we're locked and loaded. And we're ready to go. So can you take us a little bit on your financial journey from start to where you're now hanging out in bigger pockets, money, money grew? For fun? Absolutely. So really, the first thing that I did, that was a little bit, I guess, I avoided that I read Rich Dad Poor Dad, early on in my journey. And it was just one of the first books that I had read, because I had heard about it. And I read that while I was in high school. And for me, that book led me to the belief that I was not going to take on student loan debt unless I really believed in it. And but 18 years old, there was nothing that I wanted to do other than to be an entrepreneur, the version that I had in my head is much different than the reality of it. But I that's what I wanted to do. And I knew that college debt was not going to support me in that journey at that time. So for me, I went into the military, best decision I ever made. Strong male role models recommend it to anybody that doesn't necessarily know which path they want a strong work ethic, strong discipline. And in a nutshell, while I was in the military, people talk about how military don't know extorted veterans don't necessarily get paid. But as a veteran, I can tell you that you get pretty much everything for free. So for me, I was in a situation where I had free housing, I got an allowance for food, free health care. I really was living before I knew what the FII lifestyle was. I was just saving essentially all of my income. And this is right out of high school. So I would spend some but I had an over 50% savings rate while I was in the military. And really I didn't know what to do with it. At that point. I was just savings and ended up doing four years in the military left with some investments, but primarily a cash cushion. So I left the military at 22 had a start of a free education, and also had about 60,000 in cash in the bank. And then took that and started a real estate career. And for me, I knew actually that reason I got out of the military as I had decided that real estate was the path that I wanted to pursue. At the time it was real estate sales. The based on the research while I was in the military determined that one career where you can earn a high income with a low barrier to entry that requires his hard work and tenacity to succeed was real estate sales. So, went into real estate sales and really learned a lot of hard lessons because I got in when I was 22. And it was 2011, which it wasn't quite 2009. But it was towards the bottom of the real estate market. And breaking in at that time, was really instrumental because to my success today, because it allowed me to learn a lot of hard lessons. And I did not succeed right away, I made a lot of went through a lot of trials early in my sales career, and wasn't sure if it was the right thing for me. But along the way, I learned a lot about real estate, and a lot about sales. And I ended up transitioning, after four years in real estate sales to banking, was a personal banker initially, and transitioned into bank manager eventually transitioned into mortgage loans. Now, along the way, I am maintaining a 50% savings rate the entire way. And the way that we did that was I met my wife right out of the military, my wife has been a teacher still is in education. And all along the way, we knew that I was going to be the entrepreneur with the variable income. And she was going to be a teacher with a stable salary. So what we did, we lived on her income. And we invested 100% of everything that I made. And we're still doing that today. So essentially, what happened is, I started out making the same amount of money as her we were both making median incomes. For the first, I would say five years out of the military, I probably averaged about $45,000 a year. But then along the way, I was building a skill set and in a level of expertise that I was eventually able to leverage and us and we bought a couple investment properties back in 2015. Obviously, with my experience in real estate, and we've just continued to do that the timeline on the acquisitions get a little fuzzy, we've owned about 15 properties, we currently own five, so there's been some turnover in the portfolio, optimize it, selling whenever it makes sense buying when it makes sense. As a mortgage broker re leveraging or leveraging when it makes sense meaning perhaps doing a cash out refinances did one today, but to get back to the past, probably started. So around a net worth of 60,000, around 22 years old, and then slowly climbed. It wasn't until I was about 29 years old, I had a net worth of around 400,000. And really had a large sort of Bank of skills and knowledge that I had acquired. And then really everything took off from there. Income took off and the investments in the asset base that I'd built over that seven year period, eight year nine year period, had really began to gain momentum. And right now I'm still riding the momentum upswing and it seems to gain more steam, the more and more we contribute to it. Can you speak a little bit to the hockey stick nature of compounding interest and compounding investments, because I feel like it's difficult for a lot of people to understand that it's not necessarily linear. As you invest, it's not necessarily just you know, 4% 4% 5% 5% 5%, it's not a straight line. A lot of the times I see over and over again, especially as you get into real estate, and things start compounding even with your stock portfolios. When they start compounding over time, all of a sudden, you're seeing like little gain. But if you stick to the process, then all of a sudden is just like a hockey stick up. Can you speak a little bit about that principle and the fundamentals behind that? Absolutely, I can certainly speak to it in my own experience. And I see this all the time with others in the personal finance community who are early in the journey. And I shared all the same struggles that these people are having where you question the path that you're on question if it's ever going to gain traction. And the first time they say that first 100,000 is the hardest, all that stuff and all of that. And really, it's just sticking to the process. So going back a little bit. I had mentioned that around the age of 29 had roughly 40 Or excuse me 400,000 invested. That was pretty good. That was a pretty slow and gradual process to get to 400,000. I had consistently invested over 50% of our household income into real estate, almost primarily real estate, there were some stock investments, as well, but almost primarily real estate. And it wasn't till that point where we began to focus on some diversification. But at that point, a few things happened that the process of going through real estate and banking in honing my expertise had compounded to the point where I became very valuable in the marketplace, at least I'm calm compensated as such. At that point, my income went from averaging over the past nine years, somewhere in the ballpark of 4550 55 grand a very average wage. To quick I, when I in my income has continued to compound but 170 240 330. And this year, it's going to exceed that. So the income is compounding as a result of the skills and as a result of the expertise. But then the assets or something else too, because I have the asset base, which is appreciating, and then I have the cash flow from the assets being reinvested. And it's really been surprising to me, because the entire time I've had my focus on this long term goal. But just over the past year and a half, and I'm jumping around timelines right now, but I went from 400,000 to 29, it felt like it took forever to get set to 750,000 is about age 31. From 31, to 32, and a half, I went from 750,000 to 1.5 million. And a lot of that is the market. And a lot of that we've had market conditions that are very fortunate. But really, it's the momentum behind all of the previous actions and everything that's already been done that's carrying the load at this point. I'm over here smiling and laughing under my breath. Because I'm thinking back to this man, Seth talking about living him and his wife off of his off of her teacher salary. And he's got money, I've got about 40 50,000 that I can throw to invest. And we'll just live off of this teacher salary. And now all of a sudden, that for 4550, certainly allowed for 5500. That's just another day to whenever it's a skill based job, to always be a student and to never know, never believe that you're at the top. So I want to touch back on some concepts that you just said. And then we could pull some different strategies out of what you accomplished there. So one of the ideas that I want to hit on is the whole concept of financial independence, and the fire movement. I've talked about it a good bit on here, but haven't actually technically defined it. So I think I'm going to leave that up to you right now, if you want to take that and run with it, because I believe that's what you enjoy talking about just as much as I do. Absolutely. The fire movement, fire stands for financial independence retire early. And the way that I perceive it, really, the fire movement is just about gaining control of your life, by using your finances as a lever, and taking control of your finances and not being controlled by your financial circumstances. Beyond that, I think that a lot of people enter the personal finance community with based on the promise of freedom of lifestyle, and the ability to choose what you do for a living as opposed to being forced into a career path. And that that's what originally brought me but over time, it's continued to evolve. And there's all kinds of different fire acronyms now. But I think that's the core of it. Yeah, I absolutely love it. And I think it's cool to see that even with a savings rate. It's something that can differ and different people can handle it differently because I believe that I handled my savings rate a lot differently than you handle yours. But we're both doing the same thing and getting to the same goal. So for you would you say that you were just flatline across the board budgeting are we doing more of the NIS would I do as I do more of that like the meat safety kind of money dials concept to where it's when I really enjoy something and it brings a lot of value to my life. I spend extravagantly in that area. And then Ruth like equally ruthlessly cut out from other areas. So I don't know some people like it that prefer that way some people prefer Hey, this is our budget for the month for sticking to it. Absolutely. And for me, I think it's very common in the personal finance community to talk about extremes in one that you just mentioned is like the budgeting extreme, and then the spend lavishly and cut ruthlessly extreme. There are others to one extreme is like the Lean fire, there's fat fire, there's cashflow, focus, and then there's growth focus. And I think that sometimes there's a false dichotomy where it has to be one or the other. And really, for me, it's a mixture of both in almost every category I just mentioned. So for the budgeting thing, the way that we handle that is, we have a cap on the total amount of outgoing funds. So the total amount of outgoing funds, that's my wife salary, she's she since elevated in her profession, she's continued to grow. So now she's an assistant principal. So our lifestyle expenses have grown somewhat, I'm still modest in regards to our household income. But we use that as a ceiling for our expenses. And then within that, we set boundaries. But we've done it in a way that I've heard others talk about, but we just did it intuitively where the money comes into our account, we designate where it's going to go with automatic transfers, and then we don't have to think about it from there. So we know how much is going to investments, we know how much is going to our expenses. And then one thing that we do that we really believe in is we have individual spending accounts, my wife and I, where it's no questions asked on money that goes in to our spending accounts every month, we can do whatever we want with. There's a limit on the total expense. Right? Yeah, a limit on the total expense, but a lot of freedom within that limit. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's really important to be able to have a fun money kind of fraction, even if it's five to 10% of your funds. I want to talk a little bit about the mental aspect. Because as you're talking about this, especially in your situation, now, I'm thinking, I'm like, Who will I be able to exercise that same level of restraint and control? And the thought didn't last long? Because the answer was quickly No. And I know that because I've had income go up like that, like in your case. And I had a certain savings goal, like last year of cash. And I was like, I want to save X amount of cash by June. And it was a pretty large amount of cash. And I was able to save it. And I was like yeah, Brian, go, Brian, pat myself on the back, right off into the sunset. But as much as I do that, you can't even talk to anybody about any of this because nobody cares. Right? Now we actually Unity's that's what's cool about it. So then after I saved that money, it was like, I had accomplished some kind of goal in my head. And subconsciously, I just snapped and I was like, Alright, man, you're good, let loose, because I was sitting on this cash now. And I was like, I don't think I saved. Saved much more than rest of the year. So I'm just thinking like, Man, if I had 300 or $400,000, coming in annually, and I was still living off my wife salary, obviously, I don't know how I can handle that. Can you talk about how you handle that mentally, and how we can take that out and apply it even as somebody that's not making that much, but still is trying to execute the same concepts? I definitely think that it, it really comes down to the individual goals that each person has. And for me, there's a few hard lessons that I learned along the way. And just I'll go back to one of the things I've already mentioned about starting real estate in 2011. And the big lesson that I learned back in 2011, is the market can be challenging, and times can be hard. Right now we're in a bear, things are booming. Real estate values are through the roof, personal incomes are at an all time high. Even though we've gone through the pandemic, we've seen the stock market surge, and yes, unemployment has risen, but so have benefits to upon with that. So without getting in to any of that. We've experienced a lot of fortunate economic factors recently, but it's not always that way. And I think starting in a place where it was very challenging, and sales in that time to especially Real Estate Sales back in 2011 was a challenge breaking into the industry was a challenge. So I recognize that my current income could go could be dramatically we're Do 70 points. So there's that awareness is there. And it's a restraint. In addition to that, I would say that my goal is, is different. I even regardless of what the market does, I know that I'm not making this kind of income forever, I may make this income for a few more years. But I know that once I hit 2.5 million in invested assets, and I hit my cash flow goals, and my portfolios constructed the way that I want it, that I'm not going to do this forever, because of the the requirements that this type of profession places on you specifically on my time. So I know that my income will have a dramatic reduction. And I'm preparing to get there. And I want to get there as fast as possible. But just the awareness that this income is temporary, keeps our budget in line. Gotcha. And then you said 2.5 million invested assets. And that's your hard one stop. I think that's important. We just were listening to Morgan Housel speak at one of the conferences. That was just that. And he was talking about having your enough number and having your and and because the goalposts he's if you keep moving the goalposts, then that's a recipe for disaster. And he said he made the example that Bernie Madoff was 100 millionaire legally, ethically, he was already worth $100 million ethically, before he went into the mortgage fraud, and going into all the fraud and the Ponzi schemes that he created, because it just wasn't enough for him. Because his lifestyle inflated to the point that he couldn't do that, and that he couldn't be able to live on that. So I want to know a little bit about, I'm assuming you're talking about the 4% rule that you're talking about with your 2.5 million, where 4% will be able to go off that or is it something else, the 4% rule certainly plays into it. However, I don't necessarily subscribe to that. Personally, I didn't get into the fight. I didn't get into this with the mindset of saving up enough that I could withdraw the money perpetually. I got into this initially, my goals were much bigger. As I mentioned, I started as a young sales professional, I wanted to have 100 Real Estate units, and a net worth of 20 million. What the personal finance community did for me is it helped me actually define what enough was, and put a limit on some of this stuff. Because it wasn't necessarily, it wasn't necessary to actually achieve my goals, I realized that I could achieve all that I wanted and actually have a better lifestyle with significantly less assets than I had originally thought. So that what 2.5 represents, for me, is a cash flowing portfolio. I know that it again, this goes back to the extremes some people talk about, you go into the forums, and many times you'll have people that talk about, I only invest in real estate all day, and I'm going to live off the cash flow from my real estate don't even think about net worth. And then some people are talking about I'm going to only invest in stocks and allow my stocks to grow, don't focus on dividends, it's silly to focus on dividends, just let the stock portfolio grow and then withdrawn the growth. The way that I look at my assets is I look at it like I'm building a business. To me, this is a highly leveraged business. Like I have asset managers, and I have an enormous staff and because of that enormous staff, and when I'm saying staff, I'm talking about the people managing my properties. I'm also talking about the financial managers and the institutions that are handling my equities. I didn't get into the process of building a portfolio so that I would withdraw it, I do want my withdrawn excuse me, I wanted to build a portfolio that would take out cash flow perpetually. So for me, I've built my portfolio in a way that in aggregate, I receive roughly 4.8% of my portfolio's value in cash flow and that's through rents from real estate. That's from real estate investment trust income, and that's also from dividends. And from covered calls, with covered call ETFs. 2.5 represents a number that's going to kick off a certain amount of cash flow that I won't need to touch that portfolio other than passively and I will continue to contribute. I'm not planning to retire. That's just I'm planning to transition to a next phase of life. Man, that's fantastic. And for people listening, I mentioned the 4% rule. And what I was referring to is if there's a whole concept in the fire financial independence community where it's if you have your money invested in index funds in the stock market, that's yielding a seven to 8% Return annually is the assumption, then you can have a safe withdrawal rate of 4%. Once you reach what is it like you multiply whatever you want your yearly income to be by 25. So if you want it to be right, yeah, like 50,000, to withdrawal each year, then you multiply that by 25. And then as soon as you have that in invested assets and stocks, then no matter what the market does, even accounting for the worst of the lows, and the highest the highest in in recorded history, you can technically Withdraw 4% each year come hell or high water, and you will be able to live off of that safely. So that's what I was referring to there. So as, like I told you before a second want to be a little bit conscious of your time here. So as we wrap this up, in the last 10 minutes or so, I'd really like to go into some actionable tips that you can give to someone that's maybe beginning in this journey, or is a little bit into the journey where I see the sweet spot of like kind of normal people into this would be about they're saving some money, maybe 1015 to 20%, maybe. And that's normal, from what I see across the board for my friends, can you give any advice to someone that's in that kind of normal medium bracket, and about how to increase their savings, right? How to Be diligent and a good steward of their money so that they can be able to have a start of this compounding journey. I think that the and this goes back to something we talked about just a moment ago. But I think ultimately it comes down to mindset and getting the mindset to a place that is going to enable those behaviors or motivate those behaviors, because I noticed this in all my friends, or I should say people that I've interacted with, and talked to about finances, and we asked the same questions like, Why is it so hard for them to do the things that they know that if they did, would get them a certain result. And what it seems to come down to time and time again, is that it's there's more of a focus on what they want to do now, versus what they want in the future, the goals aren't clear and compelling enough to motivate the behavior. So I think for me, it's creating a very compelling vision, and making your goals very clear, and then committing to whatever those goals are. Because once you're truly committed to a vision, or to a goal, then it's just a matter of doing what it takes to get there. And the rest will take care of itself. You find the right people, you read the right books, you have the right conversations, if you're really committed to a goal, and you know that you're going to do whatever it takes to get there, then the rest takes care of itself. I completely agree. And this has been a really cool journey for me as well, because it's I started, my journey started when I was 24. I'm on the second year of this, it feels longer. But now I'm technically on the second year of this where I realized that I was worthless. I was like, Oh, I was trying to I was listening to bigger pockets. I was listening. I think that may have been before the money show or maybe right when it was beginning. And they were talking about the concept of net worth. I was a highly paid sales professional. So I was making money. And I was single at the time. And I had a nice apartment over by the Braves Stadium in Atlanta. And I'd get a commission check for a couple $1,000 I go to Miami. And I thought I was doing good. And then I realized, Hey, man, you don't have any savings. And that your net worth is literally zero. So thankfully, I was always in the camp where when you spend on a credit card, you pay that credit card off that. Thankfully, I didn't start in the negative and I was able to get that taken care of. But then I quickly realized I was like, Okay, it's time to grow this. And now that growth even over the last two years has been rampant. And it's been really cool to not only do that, but now have these conversations with people like you and communicate with people in the community and grow the community. And I think it's just so much fun for this to be leaning towards like the new sexy thing to talk about. Because before it used to be super taboo and I feel like our generation going into raising children is going to be much more open about finance and investing. Because I think our millennial The old generations all collectively fed up with the school system. We're all like, Hey, why didn't we learn how to buy a house in high school? Why didn't we learn how to set a budget in high school? How don't we learn how to balance a checkbook? How didn't we learn taxes and how to help with taxes? Because it's just ridiculous. So what do you, what are you planning to do with your little one, as they grow up? What are you planning to do to help them become a steward of their money too, and follow in your footsteps. For me, the money part is completely secondary. But you mentioned something that is really important to me. And it's part of this enough principle, and it's part of my next phase, my faith is is incredibly important to me, it's the center of my life. So my faith and my family are my two rocks. And my goal is that my daughter, she's two and a half as she grows up, she sees a man, that is an example, in every way. And for me, I'm modeling my faith, I'm modeling Jesus Christ, who, that's my role model. So I want to do as much of that as I possibly can. And really, even though I am, I'm financially successful in by society's definition, I still have a lot to learn, and personal finance, and then also spiritual finance. So I want to make sure that really my generosity is what she recognizes. Generosity is something that if I want, frugality and generosity to be like the two things that are modeled financially, to what level she achieves financial independence is not nearly as important to me as modeling frugal behavior, just being responsible with your financial decisions, knowing that in our in my faith, ultimately, we don't own it, we're managing it for for God. So managing the money, being responsible with it, and then being generous with it, that is what I want my daughter to learn, hey, beautifully said I can't even think of anything to add to that. I think that may be a good spot to enter right there. Because that kind of ties it all together with a bow. So on my side to tie it up with a bow, everything that's that's talking about is it's revolving about having a big why. Having a big driver, pulling you towards something instead of necessarily running away from a job, and running away from your problems and running away from your debt, have something that pulls you towards something important, he pulls you towards his financial independence. If you don't have kids, right now, think about what that atmosphere is going to be like when you do. And he can talk about stuff like this, because I can tell her that his mind's not clouded about certain things that a lot of normal people and myself included, think about, where it's, how am I going to put enough food on the table for us to survive? How am I going to provide, and that's been the topic of a couple of conversations I've had lately is there's so much mind space and bandwidth that's taken up with stuff like that, with financial struggle and scarcity, that you can't even focus on being a fully present father, husband, wife, anything, friend, insert blank there. So it's really cool to be able to see stuff about how you're talking about in by having frugality and generosity be the pillars of your little girl she grows up, because now you can focus on fundamentals like that, and teach her that money is a tool that can be used for x, y, and z instead of money is the pursuit. So my friend, I think that's a perfect place to end it. And I sincerely appreciate you coming on the show, my friend. This has been fantastic. I sincerely appreciate you having me. And that's very well said, Brian. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Where can people find you to learn more about you? You could learn more at SEC approves loans.com. And yeah, that's probably the best place. Oh, he met he missed the place. So you can go over to the bigger pockets money page on Facebook. Where it says Yeah, whenever his daughter's asleep. That's where Seth is. He's on there answering any and all questions that you have about mindset, money, motivation. And yeah, this is fantastic. This is Brian Luebben with the action Academy podcast and Seth bigger pockets money Jones, Simon. You've been listening to the action Academy podcast helping you to choose what you want with who you want. When you want. You've been given the gift of freedom. Don't turn your back on that. We hope you've enjoyed the show. And we hope you've gotten some practical and you useful information make sure to like rate and review the show will be back soon. But in the meantime, hook up with us on social media. Remember financial independence is freedom. The flag the freedom fly